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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
 Posted - 29/09/2009 : 2:01:03 PM
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First off, what is magnetic cogging?
Lets assume a single magnet and a single steel arm on a rotor...
As the arm aproches the magnet it gains speed because the magnet fulls it in...
When it tries to leave to magnet at the other side, the magnet tries to pull it back, thus loosing speed...
Unfortunatly, as will everything the process in not simetrical nor efficient and 'energy' is lost...
Contributing factors are initial speed, inertia and magnetic flux density
Now, if you had a big enough circular magnet (donut magnet) their would be very little magnetic drag on a rotor arm because their would be no change in magnetic flux...
Since most of our generator setups are not exactly small getting hold of such magnets would be extreamly expensive if they existed... So is their another way around the problem?
The answer is both yes and no... In other words you can get around the problem by cheeting...
if you placed two magnets next to each other as in edge to edge, the resultant magnetic field would combine into one field (well, ~99% would) thus you would then only get the equlivant drag of one magnet not two...
If you then extend that so that the entire circumference of the circle has magnets all the way around you therefor make a ring magnet and your rotor arm no-longer sees change in magnetic density...
As i mentioned, not all of the magnetic field combines into one... you will still get a limited 'vally' between magnets...
To reduce this effect make the witdth of your rotor arm two or more times the width of your magnet...
Unfortunatly, be aware that aranging the magnets in such a manner can cause problems with generator coils, nameley, reduced output...
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69
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Edited by - comwarrior on 29/09/2009 2:01:38 PM |
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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
Posted - 29/09/2009 : 5:37:48 PM
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here is an example of a way of reducing the cogging effect...
This isn't perfect because it's using circular magnets... square are best...
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 |
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BiDaDiKuNuKu
Advanced Member
Netherlands
297 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 11:02:07 PM
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what u r doing is in me eyes abit akward.
u try 2 delete the cogging but end up with almost no generated energy that way.
just take out the iron core and u have no more cogging...and still a damn good generated voltage...:D
in my New_Project all coils will b coreless(aircore)...:)...no cogging...:P
i have tested this iself and i havent seen any diff between a ironcore and aircore...they both generate the same voltage.
maybe the current is diff...but that wasnt my thingy...;-)
both coils where the same and @ the same distance...i say go with aircore...:D
Peace!
V2DAY
http://www.youtube.com/user/BiDaDiKuNuKu
"1 often meets his destiny on tha road he takes 2 avoid it" |
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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 07:57:33 AM
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erm, removing the core of my coil will not reduce cogging since neither the magnets nor the coil are moving...
I'm using an interference generator...
This pix shows the interference plates that actually spin between the magnets and the coil...
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 |
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BiDaDiKuNuKu
Advanced Member
Netherlands
297 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2009 : 10:48:18 AM
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i see...hmmm if u only could use like a non-magnetic metal of some sort to disturb the magnetic field with out u getting the cogging...that would b nice...:D
edit: cant u use like thinner metal?...the thinner the less cogging u get...but it will still disturb the field...just some random thingink here
Peace!
V2DAY
http://www.youtube.com/user/BiDaDiKuNuKu
"1 often meets his destiny on tha road he takes 2 avoid it" |
Edited by - BiDaDiKuNuKu on 05/10/2009 10:56:26 AM |
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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2009 : 1:19:17 PM
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You need to use a magnetic material in order to 'conduct' (or dilute) the flux fields away from the core of the coil...
If you use something like aluminium you get a 'cogging' effect but it's caused by lenz... basically, the magnetic field of the magnet causes an electrical flow within the alu which then shorts out creating a 99.9% efficient lenz field. And no, you can't use it!
Thinner metal, yes, but the thicker the metal to more of the magnetic field gets diverted away from the coils therefor the more power from the coils...
The way that Dquale did it is to use 18 inch ceramic donut magnets so that the rotor spinns parallel to the north face of the donut magnet and does not pass outside the donut...
However, because i've changed orentation i can't use these donut magnets, getting a magnet especially made would be hugely expensive... i'm tempted to ask a company how much they'd charge to do them just so that i can have kittens!
So, that results in me making one....
Aproximatly 32 20x10x5 rectangular magnets aranged in a circle with an epoxy - Fe3O2 (iron filings) mixture should do the trick... Well, those that know me will know i allways have a margin for error...
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 |
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BiDaDiKuNuKu
Advanced Member
Netherlands
297 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2009 : 2:47:52 PM
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i see what u mean...if u r looking 4 big donut shape magnetes u got 2 look for those damaged(old) huge speakers.
and having a company make 1 4 u...that would b expensive.
i advice u 2 make a setup that really works the way u want it 2...and them just maybe u can go crazy and let them build 1 4 u...4 now making 1 from "Aproximatly 32 20x10x5 rectangular magnets aranged in a circle with an epoxy"should do the trick...:)
Peace!
V2DAY
http://www.youtube.com/user/BiDaDiKuNuKu
"1 often meets his destiny on tha road he takes 2 avoid it" |
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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
Posted - 14/10/2009 : 6:17:46 PM
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bida, your reading my mind again...
I can confirm a significant reduction in cogging using the setup above...
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 |
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BiDaDiKuNuKu
Advanced Member
Netherlands
297 Posts |
Posted - 16/10/2009 : 09:12:56 AM
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*I can confirm a significant reduction in cogging using the setup above...
nice 1 m8, thats just what u need...:)
Peace!
V2DAY
http://www.youtube.com/user/BiDaDiKuNuKu
"1 often meets his destiny on tha road he takes 2 avoid it" |
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vesperhbt
Advanced Member
USA
345 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2009 : 2:20:30 PM
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CW----- I have been working with several mixtures and if you need some help with this I can help you in this I use different compounds to either generate a complete magnetic field or remove the field or a mixture of both and it is cheep to do to and you can mold and shape this to what ever shape you may want.
Well let me know? |
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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2009 : 9:25:36 PM
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hi vespa,
allmost everything i do is released in reasonable detail into the public domain. What isn't released will be once i've proved it...
If you have an idea or method then post away so that everyone can benefit from it...
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 |
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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 9:26:53 PM
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tuesday i orderd 30 20x10x5mm N42 magnets...
Today i recieved them...
These things have a really big field radious... the whole block of 30 magnets cause discolouration in my monitors at half a meter away...
I can see these things are going to create some interesting fields when assembled... All the screws, nails, drivers, drill bits... anything steel in the gararge has now gone quite magnetic... which sometimes is handy... lol
I'm looking at re-designing the way my unit is built... been having alignment issues with the shaft...
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 |
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vesperhbt
Advanced Member
USA
345 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 9:56:40 PM
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WOW,,,,, Yes I know what you mean I work far away from computers with my motors as well since I use so many mags my self. I cant wait to see what you have in mind for your new motor design.
vesperhbt
"The power to change the world"
www.youtube.com/vesperhbtmotor |
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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 9:46:00 PM
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I'm going for a modular design... i taking a leaf from bida's book...
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 |
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vesperhbt
Advanced Member
USA
345 Posts |
Posted - 13/11/2009 : 04:52:59 AM
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Yes it is a great way to go I feel it is the better way for testing different ideas as well.
vesperhbt
"The power to change the world"
www.youtube.com/vesperhbtmotor |
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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
Posted - 13/11/2009 : 11:59:08 PM
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i'm going to make a flexable joint using silicon sealent...
But i'm thinking of sprocket and chain... if i can find some cheep n light weight ones on ebay...
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 |
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BiDaDiKuNuKu
Advanced Member
Netherlands
297 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2009 : 1:33:30 PM
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*I'm going for a modular design... i taking a leaf from bida's book...
if u need any help just ask m8...:)
but only construction/design questions...haha...
i will even make a pic of it...;-)
happy building...:)
Peace!
V2DAY
http://www.youtube.com/user/BiDaDiKuNuKu
"1 often meets his destiny on tha road he takes 2 avoid it" |
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vesperhbt
Advanced Member
USA
345 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2009 : 2:12:07 PM
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Hummm, chain and sprocket??? that is allot of drag?
vesperhbt
"The power to change the world"
www.youtube.com/vesperhbtmotor |
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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2009 : 6:57:13 PM
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drag, yes. alot, not really... provided you keep the chain slightly slack and use a thin oil then it's drastically reduced...
It's less drag than a bearing thats 0.25mm out of alignment... and you'd never spot that it was out... ATM, I'm lucky if i get them all within 1mm
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 |
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cass
Senior Member
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2009 : 8:09:33 PM
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comwarrior, what if you used a pully system like that on a car? i think this might be more beneficial than the use of sprockets and chains
"Think of an Idea to Change our World, and put it Into Action"
http://www.youtube.com/cas15n |
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vesperhbt
Advanced Member
USA
345 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2009 : 8:17:16 PM
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I was thinking of a magnetic rotor design no friction or loss of power?
vesperhbt
"The power to change the world"
www.youtube.com/vesperhbtmotor |
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comwarrior
Moderator
United Kingdom
450 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2009 : 11:54:11 PM
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vespa:
Too heavy... and even the slightest imballence on the rotor and it'll fly off...
cass:
pully would put sideways force on both shaftes causing more friction... besides, i allways thaught a belt drive was in-efficient...
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Generator Systems Moderator
"Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing!
"Every Action has an equal and opposite re-action" - Why not use the re-action to create an additional action?
95% efficiency, I dare you to do better!
http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 |
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vesperhbt
Advanced Member
USA
345 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2009 : 2:48:29 PM
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Okay you could use clam gears with a 30 deg pitch and 14 dwell to reduce friction one reversed from the other for the contact point, could gear it up for a faster return speed to.
vesperhbt
"The power to change the world"
www.youtube.com/vesperhbtmotor |
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BiDaDiKuNuKu
Advanced Member
Netherlands
297 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2009 : 6:59:04 PM
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here r some ways 2 deliver movement from A to B...:)
1-pullys-belt...some slipping...check under tha hood of ur car...;-)
2-pullys-teethed belt drive...like OCC use on their choppers...
3-sprocket and chain...Bicycle Bicycle i wanna ride my...:P
4-gears...everywhere...check ur smashed VHR and so on...:D
5-mechanical beam...as a steam train has on their wheels...love those...:)
6-drive shaft...better 4get this 1...to difficult and not reachable 4 us...like on ur car(reardrive) or BMW motorcycle.
have fun...:D
Peace!
V2DAY
http://www.youtube.com/user/BiDaDiKuNuKu
"1 often meets his destiny on tha road he takes 2 avoid it" |
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JustAnElectrician
Advanced Member
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2009 : 10:51:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by comwarrior
...I'm tempted to ask a company how much they'd charge to do them just so that i can have kittens!...
I saw a place here in the states that advertised custom magnets on their
website, and their line up was among the cheapest around, high quality NIB stuff,
if I find them again in my links, I'll see to it that you get the info.
Adding overseas shipping on top of custom magnets is likely still too much
even if you could get a great price... Shipping slow boat might help tho!
Rob
OPEN SOURCERER APPRENTICE!
...Just An Electrician...Since 1985... |
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vesperhbt
Advanced Member
USA
345 Posts |
Posted - 16/11/2009 : 5:21:44 PM
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Yes if you find the link keep me in mind for the send out.
vesperhbt
"The power to change the world"
www.youtube.com/vesperhbtmotor |
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Topic |
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Magnetic 'cogging'
