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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
 Posted - 27/07/2008 : 5:07:09 PM
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hello everybody!
i just built my first bedini circuit, inspired by some of daftmans videos... i specially like that pin-on-wood system 
however... my rotor (yet a crap thing) wont spin. i used daftmans scematic, but i have different resistors (white ones... pretty large)
my coil has welding rods as core, for the wires i used (in deutsch-terms  0,50 and 0,56 mm). the larger for the trigger, but i read here that this is wrong so i´ll change that tomorrow to see..
anyway, when the circuit is half connected, charge + not connected, light sounds appear, they go stronger when the magent (neons) is over the core. not instandly - it takes some time - the light bulb (70v) goes on but dimly, when i take measuring, lets say ohms left and right from the pot (10k) the light turns off AND sounds disappear.. then i have to dis- and reconnet a wire on the bat and things reappear.. 
i use two 6V batterys, when connected the daftman-way they are in series aren´t they?
i´m completely new to electronics in any way, but could anyone tell me what´s going down? i´ll try to post some pictures of the system. thanks for your answers!
p.s. to the coil... how many turns i don´t know, it´s a little longer then the daftman kind, about the same thickness - the whole system is about the same size.
ps2: now i changed the inputs for the coil - thicker wire now run wire, but still nothing happens...
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Edited by - Robot77 on 28/07/2008 5:07:43 PM |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
 Posted - 30/07/2008 : 5:24:24 PM
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hello everyone!
as i work on - redid the circuit - here some measuring, maybe that helps... anyway: i only had a 470 ohms resistor and a 10k potentiometer at hand, how crucial are those components - in terms of using daftmans scematic with a 2n3005 transistor.
measuring:
chargebat+ / runbat- 12,7v
runbat +/- -6,3v
runbat + / chargebat+ 6,3v
emitter/collector approx 6v
base/collector approx 6v
Triggercoil 7,6 ohm
runcoil 5,9 ohm
strange thing (for me): when i started playing around today, i couldnt get a measuring at the pins at the board, but on the coilpins 0,45v on the runcoil and 0,33v on the triggercoil, later after spinning the wheel several times approx 5 v on the run and approx 0,10v on triggercoil... when i measure inbetween start run / start trigger i get about 12v...
some questions:
how can i test if the coil is short-circuited(???)
can i run the circuit from a single power source, without charging anything?
is power supply to low? (try to get 2 carbatteries on the weekend  )
sorry for questioning so much stupid things, but like most of the times... more questions than answers...
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theremart
Advanced Member
154 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2008 : 4:24:02 PM
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If you meter has a "continuity test" you can test you coils for short. simply put the meter on both coils if the meter goes off, you have a short. that or put a small 9v battery on one coil and if you see the voltage on the other coil you have a short.
Not a good idea to run the SSG without a load, it can fry the transistor in a hurry.
See my playground here --> www.youtube.com/marthale7 |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 8:06:15 PM
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hi theremart!
i think i messed some things up with the first circuits.. made another coil, and new circuit. now i have what daftman recommends, 100 ohms resistor and 1k pot (when its in the circuit... it always shows about 900something ohms, if not it works ok) - the pot is smaller... about a centimeter...
fully connected, heavy wire from the batteries, but the wheel wont spin. i set up led´s on the pins coming from the coil - and they light up when i speed up the wheel  so, coil ok, isn´t it?
when i disconnet the charge battery (now i use 2 12v motorcycle batts), it also lights up when i speed up the wheel, but in both cases it has to reach a certain speed. but the bulb (70v) is supposed to light up, if everything set up right, isnt it?
i also use a new wheel now, about 15-20 centimeters, with 6 little neons.
as i understand, everything should be correct, but why oh why isn´t he wheel running on itself???
some more little questions..
how crucial is the size of the gap between the wheel and the coil?
where is the crucial data measured?
am i correct with this: on the 2n3055 transistor, with the pins closer to the bottom, the left is the emitter and the right base?
could it help to put a (small) capacitor in the circuit to get it running?
hope my questions getting better..
thanks again.
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Edited by - Robot77 on 03/08/2008 6:59:19 PM |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 07:55:20 AM
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i uploaded some pictures on another forum,
if anyone wants to take a look... :)
photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Photo 4
Photo 5
Photo 6
Photo 7
Photo 8 |
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teep
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
347 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 3:08:37 PM
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Hi Robot77 welcome to the TEEP forum. Now in your Photo 7, I see a problem, please see the photo I have just posted of your pre-set I have add the link in that photo. This missing link maybe why you cannot get it running. Good work.
Yours theDaftman TEEP forums administrator. |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 10:27:26 AM
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hi teep!
thanks for putting in the pictures, and setting up this forum to discuss such issues!
i made the change you suggested, the ohms are now adjustable down to 1 ohm - but wheel still wont spin.
funny thing:
when i disconnect the charge battery, and i touch the +cable to the run battery the bulb is flickering on - very shortly and there is a small attraction in the coil - all without wheel spinning. but the effect dies away after a few times of touching the + on the battery.
think i´ll check the circuit all over again...
thanks for the input!
robot77
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 09:36:00 AM
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did another test (maybe i shouldnt ... )
connected my coils directly to the battery, and got pushes on the wheel - stronger with my first coil, so i´ll return back experimenting on that one.. |
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theremart
Advanced Member
154 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 10:44:26 PM
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Hi Robot...
I have found there are 4 different positions with the coils, if your setup is not working you can try the following.
1. hook up trigger and power coils. ( test to see if works ) ( Posistion 1.
2. if it does not swap the trigger coil leads test again ( Position 2
3. Swap the power coil leads test ( Position 3
4. Swap the trigger coil leads ( Position 4
Check to make sure all of your magnets are facing "North" out on the wheel. ( Use a compass and place near the magnets. The north side of the magnet with make the South pole of the compass attract it ( opposites attract )
Test your resistors with your volt meter to make sure they are the right value ( this stopped me for 2 weeks I had a 100K resistor instead of a 100 ohm resistor .)
You may of made the mistake of killing your transistor. Never leave the charging battery unhooked as this can be the death of your transistors.
Keep at it.... you are very close.!
See my playground here --> www.youtube.com/marthale7 |
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theremart
Advanced Member
154 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 10:47:27 PM
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P.S. set the gap about 1/8th of an inch.... for starters... you have a heavy wheel there, I am not sure how strong your magnets are to over come the weight of the wheel and the drag on the bearings.
Also, what is the voltage on your primary battery? You should charge it up so you have a good voltage to test with...
Just more thoughts...
See my playground here --> www.youtube.com/marthale7 |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 4:58:54 PM
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hi theremart again!
the magnets point north - do have south attraction.
they are small 0,5 mm in length and diameter.
i can move the wheel by holding the magnets 5-6 cm´s away.
i thought about the mass of my wheel, and that this
could be a problem, i´m searching for a disfunctional harddrive
or any better system...
well, but i do get trusts - when i manage to hit a good rhythm on the battery i even get the wheel spinning. i know, thats not the right method but... it should be the same amount of energy when the circuit works, isnt it?
run battery has 12,57 volts, charge battery 12,58 volts,
better flip?
i´ll try what you suggested, hooking up the coil
in different positions - but do i understand right:
just swapping the different cables?
resistor i tried last time was 100 ohms,
exact "rings" as suggested by daftman.
hmm.. when you say it´s always better
not to disconnenct the charge battery,
then this one should be the first to hook up?
thanks for the encouraging words at the end!
mighty blessings from the mountainside!
robot
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 6:40:56 PM
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i just tested some more:
("seph-circuit" and the first coil i made, on power)
put a compass behind the coil, which was pretty neutral.
when i give the wheel a hard thrust the magnetic field behind the coil - and i think within the coil - readjusts and points north towards the wheel. this effect dies away when the wheel drops under a certain speed. do i understand right that this should happen??!!
now, this encouraged me for some more experimenting
i took my second coil and again connected it directly to the battery.
here my results... (maybe most of you did know... hope this is some help to a starter like me..)
connecting
Start Run (or trigger) to +
end run (or trigger) to -
i get a north attractive field,
start Run (or trigger) to -
end run (or trigger) to +
i get a south attractive field
do i understand right that i NEED a
south attractive field - with north
pointing towards the magnet, and therefor
give it a push?
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 6:58:21 PM
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sorry one more:
it is said to use magnetic(coated?) wire.
i use coated copper wire, but does it have to be magnetic itself?!?
mine isn´t... |
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theremart
Advanced Member
154 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 7:26:07 PM
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Hi good to see you have not given up :)
Good you checked the magnets that is good.
Another thing, when starting up give the wheel a good spin, I normally do not have any trouble with neo's starting a wheel, but yours sound like they may be small...
The voltages you gave sound find on the batteries should run ok..
Yes I have done exactly as you have done with the coils just energizing them at the right time to test if the circuit works.. I used a reed switch, but that method draws too much juice from the batteries ( at least my circuit did )
Correct just swap the cables... and spin the coil for each test.
I as a rule ALWAYS hook up the charging battery first,
and I mark the cables, and I color coat them. I have blown transistors by hooking the terminals on the charging battery backwards... very bad day..
God richly bless ya :) Keep at it you are very close....
mart
See my playground here --> www.youtube.com/marthale7 |
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theremart
Advanced Member
154 Posts |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 24/08/2008 : 05:46:11 AM
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hi there everybody!
had to earn some living, but back on testing and questioning,
cause i stumbled over another curious thing for me:
using the same circuit as shown here, just set in a new transistor
switched the coils so they push north..
now, still not running, BUT when i take the multimeter and measure ohms (and diode-symbol) between the base (2n3055 with pins closer to top, left pin base) and collector the wheel pushes and with rhythmicaly touching base and collector i get a nice speed. coil is making sound, depending on the resistor higher or lower. it works better when the display of the multimeter shows a negativ resistance (on the transistor around -120 and -160 ohms). this is NOT working when measuring volts or amps.
is there someone to translate whats happening here?
i understand it that way: with measuring i change something in the resistor and its triggering - what is supposed to - but why only with ohms and the diode symbol...
i connected my power coil now in a way that the magnetic north points towards the wheel - how has the triggerfield to be? by winding them together i suppose the same direction...?!
anyway - now i know the system is able to move the wheel by itself.. thanks again for all the input!
robot
ps. oh - i did made the 3rd connection on the variable transistor - but not shown in the picture... |
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theremart
Advanced Member
154 Posts |
Posted - 24/08/2008 : 07:22:20 AM
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I believe I see your problem. On your transistor you have E and B switched. The schematic is designed for a three prong transistor, swap the connections for both E and B and you should be rolling.
Mart
See my playground here --> www.youtube.com/marthale7 |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 24/08/2008 : 09:02:18 AM
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hi mart!
thats what i´ll do right away...
just did some more:
when bridging the present base/collector,
i get a strong steady magnetic field in the coil,
but everything heating up pretty fast...
so, now on for swapping the pins... |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 28/08/2008 : 04:27:30 AM
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i´m so sorry to have a "hot-topic" just by asking all those questions, but i hope that a noob like me could get some information out of this, so i post some more results...
i tried switching the transistor - but no... nothing new - should be ok the way i setup..
for troubleshooting, and better understanding i went back to build this one  with a 47ohms resistor.
but again no work... i really feel all of this going down to my coils... either its the wrong wiresizes, or the core (is welding electrodes...???!?), or the combination of both.
so, until i´ve my new coils done, i did some experimenting with my "old" ones on this simpler circuit:
when pushing the wheel slowly:
inductive voltage in both coils around 4-6 mV
when giving a hard push, a magnetic field (north towards the magnets) is created (compass behind coil) but fades away with dropping wheelspeed... in the time the field is up i get a 3-5 volts reading on the powercoil (why oh why with 12v input...) and about 20-60 mV input on the trigger-coil.
anyway, i´m happy to see that there IS something happening, although its way to weak and unstable.
another thing i tried is to put a capacitor (63v, 100mF) on the triggercoil... this gave me a constant magnetic field with transistor and coil getting warm, but no significant change in driving the wheel.
so, this time no questions i´m looking forward getting the new wires, and start from the top.
robot |
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Harlekin
New Member
Germany
45 Posts |
Posted - 28/08/2008 : 3:18:12 PM
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Hi Robot.
Just to give you an idea....
My roller wheel motor does not spin with my 460 turns coil.
It does (but very slowly) with my 1200 turn coil.
I abandoned using the roller wheel. The magnets I put inside were to small in width to sustain proper rotation.
After building a rotor out of an old 5 1/4" harddisk with six magnets on it, my SG is spinning well.
The spacing and width factor of magnets should be 3..4 to 1.
That means that between a magnet and the next magnet should be a gap wide enough to place 2..3 magnets inside (not more nor less).
Further the width of the magnets should approx. match the diameter of the coil (core + windings).
And of course the drag of the bearings should be as less as possible and the mass of the wheel considerably high.
Copper coated welding rods are doing fine as core.
Glue them together with super glue after placing them inside the coil.
The core must not stick out of the coil more than 1 mm.
The air gap between core and rotor magnets should be 3-6 mm.
There should be no magnetic field or warming when the wheel is not spinnig.
The transistor is just fired a very short time to kick the rotor away.
This kick schould be happen just after a magnet ->passed<- the core and starts leaving the area of the coil.
The diagram you showed is the School Girl motor.
Maybe you should use Daftman's 'Wood 'n Nail' circuit instead.
Look at the video where daftman describes in detaill how to build a SG.
Keep on going....
Harlekin
If it's imaginable, it's doable ... |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 29/08/2008 : 1:42:21 PM
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hi harlekin!
it´s because of daftmans videos that i started out, cause i though wow, that looks easy, lets try you can see one of my daftman-versions on the first page of this thread..
i´m just checking for harddisks... as soon as i get my hands on, i´ll try that! also i ordered diskmagnets that cover the whole core. but to understand right, by coppercoated welding rods you mean simply kupferbeschichtete lötstäbe (at the moment i have welding electrodes). i´ll go for 0,8 and 0,4 mm wire now.
one thing i don´t understand:
i think my magnets are too weak, and together with my coil, not enough inductive power is produced to trigger the transistor.
now, some people say its better to use weak magnets, some say better to use strong ones. i have neons, and in their dimensions they are to weak (pulling appro. 800 gramms) - so whats the holy grail - or is just every part related to the other?
thanks for the input!
i´ll put everything into the new model,
and for sure: keep going!
robot |
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Harlekin
New Member
Germany
45 Posts |
Posted - 30/08/2008 : 8:59:03 PM
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<smile>
Schweißelektroden sind Käse, da sie so eine ziemlich dicke Beschichtung haben.
Nimm einfach Schweißdrähte zum Schweißen von Stahl aus dem Baumarkt. Die sind aus Weicheisen mit einer hauchdünnen Kupferbschichtung als Flußmittel.
Hir ein Bild meiner alten Spule mit den Schweißdrähten drin.
Neos sind zu stark. Ziel sollte sein Ferrit Magnete zu nehmen.
Schau Dir einfach nochmal das Foto von meinem Mark IV Rotor an.
Die Dinger gibts bei Conrad.
Stephan
If it's imaginable, it's doable ... |
Edited by - Harlekin on 30/08/2008 9:03:03 PM |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2008 : 05:59:01 AM
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hi stefan!
unfortunately i cant see any pictures.
i went to obi on the weekend to get me a new core, the thing you mentioned i couldn´t find - but i took "welding rods" for hard-soldering (material fürs´s hartlöten...)
so, now i´ve got a new core, but that doesn´t make my crcuit run - still i´m waiting for the new wire - what will take another week i suppose.
but, some funny things happen with the new core:
it can hold much more power for longer period of time, up to ten mV for a couple of time.
beeing in thoughts i played around with the wheel - circuit not connected to any power source - and after a time the coil magnetised (north towards the wheel) and is now for over 2 days. well, i know coils can safe a certain amount of power... but this looks funny to me.
i found a funny link... which cleared up a lot to me...
http://www.brucewilles.de/grundlagen.html
this is german, if someone is interested i can translate certain parts...
thanks for inputting again - i´ll go for the conrad magnets (but first i have to try the stuff i ordered )
blessings!
robot |
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Robot77
Starting Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 05:26:17 AM
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hi again!
so, finally i made it work!! the sg and ssg is running!
for the moment everything i changed was the magnets.
the new ones are neons again, covering the whole core and are pretty strong. i used this ones:
http://www.supermagnete.de/ger/bigpic.php?pic=1592.jpg&article_id=CSN-20
rest is stil the same. coil is getting slightly warm (not enough windings...?!) as does the 100 ohms resistor - rest stays cool.
a 12v 5w light bulbs liftime of 2000h was shortened to 5 sec of bright light.
yeeeehaaaaa! thanks for all the input!!
robot
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theremart
Advanced Member
154 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 3:56:36 PM
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WOOOH HOOO do a dance :) I remember when I got my first one running...
Yes too few windings on a coil will cause heating on a coil... either lower voltage or up the windings.. or get out the marshmellows :)
See my playground here --> www.youtube.com/marthale7 |
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Harlekin
New Member
Germany
45 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2008 : 03:47:10 AM
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Well done Robot!
Now you have a puls motor going. Grats!.
But this device is still and will ever be running below COP=1.
The COP>1 will happen inside the charge battery if you closly monitor what you put in there and what you get out of it.
So what's next?
What about starting to do some closely watched charge and discharge cycles?
The first 10-15 cycles you will see nothing big.
After that the story should get interesting...
Stephan
If it's imaginable, it's doable ... |
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question on circuit
