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jump jack motor generator

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T O P I C R E V I E W
teep	Posted - 29/05/2008 : 07:47:35 AM Below is a unit I built some time ago, it maybe of some interest, I called it my jump jack motor generator. Yours theDaftman TEEP forums administrator.
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
comwarrior	Posted - 25/08/2009 : 6:54:00 PM Erm, no... T2 is powerd by the back EMF collected in C1... so the Positive lead of C1 is the positive supply into T2... The negative of C1 is the negative into T2... The fact that the negative into T2 is the positive into T1 (the positive from the battery) is just going to confuse the crap out of everyone, so don't think about it... just make the connections to C1 from T2 as if C1 was a battery... I'm working over a mod to this circuit which MAY allow the Back EMF from T2 to flow back to the primary battery... But don't worrie about that at this stage... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69
tropes	Posted - 25/08/2009 : 6:15:09 PM quote: Originally posted by comwarrior Tropes, Tell me if you understand this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 Tell me if I have this right. You are using a 12V source to power T1. The BEMF is collected in C1. You are using the + side of the 12V battery and the - side of C1 to power T2. Tropes Tropes
comwarrior	Posted - 25/08/2009 : 4:18:49 PM Tropes, Tell me if you understand this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69
comwarrior	Posted - 25/08/2009 : 4:00:53 PM hi tropes, Erm, unfortunatly i don't at the moment, well, I don't have one for a standard bedini controll system... However, I'm running through the theory prior to simulation at the moment... Having said that... leave it with me a mo... Also tropes, you 'sortof' get a mention in one of my new video's entitled pulse motor gears within gears within gears... i actually forgot your name while i was filming... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69
tropes	Posted - 24/08/2009 : 6:41:56 PM quote: The question is not so much as to can you re-use back emf but more a case of do you use more energy trying to re-use BEMF than you'd gain... My initial experiments (not my curent ones) showed that I got 10% of the pulse back as re-usable BEMF... Now, if you were to run 4 cilinders on normal power and then run the fifth on back emf (instead of trying to get it to feed back to source) then you'd get a better benefit... This is what i'm looking at doing on my system... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 Comwarrior Do you have a proposed circuit which will run the fifth coil using the BEMF? tropes
comwarrior	Posted - 20/08/2009 : 05:20:45 AM quote: Originally posted by tropes quote: Originally posted by teep Sorry forgot to say at the same time as the battery is disconnected one could feed the BEMF into the battery for longer run time. Yours theDaftman TEEP forums administrator. See my videos on YouTube. http://uk.youtube.com/theDaftman Do you think it is possible to use two capacitors as such with no disruption in flow: Cap #1 is filled to 36 Volts using the BEMF from the drive coils and the dumps into #2 at 36 Volts. When #2 reaches 36 volts the current is switched from #1 so the current to #2 is then supplied by the generating coils (coils around the pistons). When cap #2 reaches 40 volts it is discharged into a battery or used to fire the coils of the motor. When #2 is discharged to 24 volts the current is switched off and the process is repeated. Tropes The question is not so much as to can you re-use back emf but more a case of do you use more energy trying to re-use BEMF than you'd gain... My initial experiments (not my curent ones) showed that I got 10% of the pulse back as re-usable BEMF... Now, if you were to run 4 cilinders on normal power and then run the fifth on back emf (instead of trying to get it to feed back to source) then you'd get a better benefit... This is what i'm looking at doing on my system... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69
tropes	Posted - 19/08/2009 : 8:24:54 PM quote: Originally posted by teep Sorry forgot to say at the same time as the battery is disconnected one could feed the BEMF into the battery for longer run time. Yours theDaftman TEEP forums administrator. See my videos on YouTube. http://uk.youtube.com/theDaftman Do you think it is possible to use two capacitors as such with no disruption in flow: Cap #1 is filled to 36 Volts using the BEMF from the drive coils and the dumps into #2 at 36 Volts. When #2 reaches 36 volts the current is switched from #1 so the current to #2 is then supplied by the generating coils (coils around the pistons). When cap #2 reaches 40 volts it is discharged into a battery or used to fire the coils of the motor. When #2 is discharged to 24 volts the current is switched off and the process is repeated. Tropes
tropes	Posted - 19/08/2009 : 5:13:16 PM quote: Originally posted by comwarrior Hi tropes, I see where your going with this so, hopefully i can throw over some good ideas... For reference, I believe i have the title for then most complecated pulse motor control system... I use a PIC microprocessor and an ever increasing now 1000 command program... I'm curently adding an auto tune feature, so that the CPU automatically adjusts the tuning values for best RPM... I'm also going to introduce RPM limiting to the CPU unit... if the RPM goes over a 'red line' point then the unit will automatically not pulse till the RPM falls back to a 'safe' speed. now, back to your setup... first thing is, I don't believe that using gen coils on the pistons is a good idea since i can't see a way of negating LENZ's law... However, i'm preping for a video, hopefully this weekend when i'm going to she the principals of the generator that i'm using that has the advantage that lenz's law increases the RPM instead of decreasing it... I agree with daftman, the best controll systems may be HAL + relay or a bedini type system... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 My electronic engineer friend agrees that a fully featured processor that incorporates a central processing unit on a single IC with internal RAM, EEROM FLASH memory and peripherals could be added to the final motor as a controller and analyser. Meanwhile, I am still struggling to get the 5 coil crankshaft together. I also agree that I will never be able to negate Lenz's Law but I will continue to utilize and experiment with the coils around each piston. Since I have already built a commutator using 5 photointerrupters I will use it and can always go to a better system later. As always, I value any input. Tropes
comwarrior	Posted - 19/08/2009 : 11:58:01 AM Hi tropes, I see where your going with this so, hopefully i can throw over some good ideas... For reference, I believe i have the title for then most complecated pulse motor control system... I use a PIC microprocessor and an ever increasing now 1000 command program... I'm curently adding an auto tune feature, so that the CPU automatically adjusts the tuning values for best RPM... I'm also going to introduce RPM limiting to the CPU unit... if the RPM goes over a 'red line' point then the unit will automatically not pulse till the RPM falls back to a 'safe' speed. now, back to your setup... first thing is, I don't believe that using gen coils on the pistons is a good idea since i can't see a way of negating LENZ's law... However, i'm preping for a video, hopefully this weekend when i'm going to she the principals of the generator that i'm using that has the advantage that lenz's law increases the RPM instead of decreasing it... I agree with daftman, the best controll systems may be HAL + relay or a bedini type system... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69
tropes	Posted - 17/08/2009 : 6:17:43 PM quote: Originally posted by teep Sorry forgot to say at the same time as the battery is disconnected one could feed the BEMF into the battery for longer run time. Yours theDaftman TEEP forums administrator. See my videos on YouTube. http://uk.youtube.com/theDaftman Thanks Daftman Very interesting food for thought. 1.) My original electronics was a Hall IC and magnets on the flywheel. I found that using a photointerrupter gave me more control of the duration (72 degrees for the single coil and 38 degrees for the 2 coil motor.). 2.) There is little room for coils around the pistons because of the short 1 inch stroke. I found a loss of RPM when the coil was widened. 3.) I am using 2 capacitors; one collecting BEMF from the main coil and one from the generating coils. I have used a switch to use the BEMF current from the cap to fire the coil (switch from battery to cap).It acts like a supercharger and fires the coil briefly about 4 to 5 revolutions. 4.) With only one firing coil there is no freewheeling. 5.) If I don't remove the BEMF from the firing coil the transistor fries. Any suggestions for protection??? Interesting Observation: When I fill the generating cap from the BEMF cap there is very little reduction in RPM when I draw from the generating coil cap, however the RPM decreases once the voltage drops. I hope this will promote some discussion. Tropes
teep	Posted - 17/08/2009 : 5:23:44 PM Sorry forgot to say at the same time as the battery is disconnected one could feed the BEMF into the battery for longer run time. Yours theDaftman TEEP forums administrator. See my videos on YouTube. http://uk.youtube.com/theDaftman
teep	Posted - 17/08/2009 : 5:17:32 PM Thinking about your set-up tropes. Maybe some type of control device mechanical or electronic that would dump the collected power from a cap back into the run side of your unit. So what am I thinking? If you add 2 generating coils and a bifilar coil you can probably make your unit more efficient. How? 1. Remove all the electronics and replace with something more basic for the running side of things and eliminate any electronic timing problems to boot. I would use a mosfet to switch the power on and off to the run coils, then use a trigger winding to switch the mosfet. Just like a Bedini motor but with a more efficient circuit. 2. Then id add 2 or maybe 4 generating coils and feed the energy they produce in to a bank of capacitors or a large capacitor so I can dump the collected energy back into the system to help run the unit. 3. How would I do this? I would achieve this by implementing a revolution counter or a simple timer that will switch off the power supply momentarily and drain the energy from the capacitor/s that was produced by the generating coils into a run capacitor. Now the drawback of this unit will hunt a bit (speed up and down). Now I based this idea on the unit being able to freewheel for sometime if it doesn�t adding a larger flywheel will improve this. I haven�t delved into the control circuitry for now as any test can be done with a manual switch or a relay. I have uploaded you some quick diagrams to try and explain more. Sorry for my brief description I�m very tired today, not had much sleep over the last week, work and all that. I haven�t spent much time on the diagram, so maybe some mistakes not got the time to proof them sorry but if you find anything in this post interesting I will rework them. I just wanted to get these ideas down on the forum as these ideas have been buzzing around in my head for some time now. Yours theDaftman TEEP forums administrator. See my videos on YouTube. http://uk.youtube.com/theDaftman
tropes	Posted - 17/08/2009 : 12:34:17 PM quote: Originally posted by oldHermit Great work, very nice motor. I'm curious whether you've managed to come up with a way to use the juice from the cap you were asking about earlier. Didn't see anyone reply to your question about it. oldHermit I've tried a few things but the cap,unlike a battery,releases the current very quickly. I'm thinking I may need a Super Cap to use the juice to fire the coils or charge the battery. I will experiment more when I have a multicoil motor. Tropes
oldHermit	Posted - 17/08/2009 : 10:58:56 AM Great work, very nice motor. I'm curious whether you've managed to come up with a way to use the juice from the cap you were asking about earlier. Didn't see anyone reply to your question about it. oldHermit
tropes	Posted - 16/08/2009 : 5:46:14 PM quote: Originally posted by comwarrior Indeed that does make it more efficient... However, wrapping a gen coil around the pistons is not going to work too well since you'll still have the lenz drag... having said that, if your piston tubes were thin steel, then theoretically you could draw a limited amount to power without additional drag on the pistons because the lenz flux would be able to flow through the steel to the other side instead of acting againsed the magnets on the pistons... I wonder how many piston pairs would it take to spin a small alternator and then, how much could you get out of that alternator... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69 Comwarrior The Lenz effect does not occur until the current is drawn from the coils much like a solonoid. However, when the current from the generater coils is used, there is a breaking effect (lower RPM) on the motor. I hope to use this effect as a means of charging a battery each time there is a need to decelerate. The cylinders are made of two graphite rods rather than a steel tube because there is less drag and the magnets would be attacted to the cylinders if they were made of ferrous material. The flyback voltage from this setup is collected in a capacitor and I believe that with a 5 coil motor I will be able to fire one or two of the coils from this source. It is a pleasure to have your input and interesting views on this unique motor. Thank you. Tropes
comwarrior	Posted - 16/08/2009 : 3:46:11 PM Indeed that does make it more efficient... However, wrapping a gen coil around the pistons is not going to work too well since you'll still have the lenz drag... having said that, if your piston tubes were thin steel, then theoretically you could draw a limited amount to power without additional drag on the pistons because the lenz flux would be able to flow through the steel to the other side instead of acting againsed the magnets on the pistons... I wonder how many piston pairs would it take to spin a small alternator and then, how much could you get out of that alternator... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69
tropes	Posted - 15/08/2009 : 1:29:36 PM [quote]Originally posted by comwarrior Thats just so unfair... Last night i found an old RC nitro engine that had a score down the piston liner (hence why i couldn't use it) and i thaught about sticking one of my neo's to the top of the piston and putting a coil where the piston head should be... And then i had the thaught of building a 'V8' pulse motor... but as mentioned, the crank shaft could be a problem... I can in here to post my thaughts only to find this topic... DOH! Someone with a lathe/CNC could proberbly do one... For the rest of us mere mortals my only thaught was to use a mold and epoxy... Any ideas? [quote] As an old drag racer from the 70's I had some of those same thoughts. Some of my early work including a single piston motor can be found at http://www.theowlnest.com/hopgy.html I came to the conclusion that the most efficient motor was one that used one coil between two magnets; you get the attraction of the two magnets for 180 degrees and the repulsion of one coil on two magnets for a short duration. The drag of cylinder walls is eliminated because there is no need for compression. I now have all the parts(40)for a 5 coil crank which I hope to assemble soon using Loctite. The staggering of each throw is tricky because of the firing order. I would very much like to see another piston motor being built by someone in this group. Tropes
comwarrior	Posted - 15/08/2009 : 1:07:41 PM Thats just so unfair... Last night i found an old RC nitro engine that had a score down the piston liner (hence why i couldn't use it) and i thaught about sticking one of my neo's to the top of the piston and putting a coil where the piston head should be... And then i had the thaught of building a 'V8' pulse motor... but as mentioned, the crank shaft could be a problem... I can in here to post my thaughts only to find this topic... DOH! Someone with a lathe/CNC could proberbly do one... For the rest of us mere mortals my only thaught was to use a mold and epoxy... Any ideas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Energy can not be created nor distroyed, it can only be changed into other forms" - so lets do some changing! 95% efficiency, I dare you to do better! http://www.youtube.com/user/comwarrior69
BiDaDiKuNuKu	Posted - 18/07/2009 : 4:41:52 PM that ima can follow... but its the current that is abit of a pain... i can messure the current that ma setup draw... but from like the 6 GC that i have or the generator with prop...still have 2 learn that... but...that doesnt keep me from pushing forward...:)) Peace! V2DAY http://www.youtube.com/user/BiDaDiKuNuKu "1 often meets his destiny on tha road he takes 2 avoid it"
tropes	Posted - 18/07/2009 : 01:07:32 AM The FWBR converts AC to DC. The two ends of the coil wire are connected to the two AC input leads of the rectifier. The current goes though a series of diodes to create an output of DC (positive & negative). The output voltage can be measured by attaching the multimeter to these two output wires. Tropes
tropes	Posted - 11/07/2009 : 10:18:27 AM quote: Originally posted by teep Quick rule of thumb. The thicker the wire the more currant. The more wire the more voltage. The more wire one uses in the coil the less currant but more voltage. (It�s the balancing between length and gage to get the required results.)So in short to get more currant you need low coil turns but thicker gage wire. Just have a look at a car alternator gage of wire, you will find it�s thick gage wire and low in the number of turns in comparison to are work. The next thing is in order to calculate a gage to length ratio for any alternator one would have to know all the dimensions of your proposed alternator, like the materials its going to be constructed from. The type and strength of the magnetic field that one would be using, and a bunch more information would be needed to even start. In other words it�s a mind field when it comes to Alternators/generators. So that brings me back to the Quick rule of thumb. And the above is correct to a point. Alternators/generators may seem very simple when completed but not so when preparing to build one from scratch. Nice work Topher. I may seem to be absent, but I am watching all your progress. I�ve gone back to playing with magnetic motors just for now but nothing to report. Yours theDaftman TEEP forums administrator. See my videos on YouTube. http://uk.youtube.com/theDaftman Thanks for your input. Unlike the thousands of John Bedini and Robert Adams replicas, there is only one Sotropa Motor. Likely because of the ease of construction of the Bedini type or the dislike for reciprocating piston motors. Fact is 99% of vehicles built are powered by a reciprocating piston engine. I believe a reciprocating piston type electric motor would be well received by the public. I have all parts required to complete a five coil �Sotropa Motor�. I believe that the current generated from four coils will power at least one other coil. However, I am in need of a fabricator or manufacturer who is willing to trade their time and expertise, and perhaps a small amount of material, for the time, expertise, and material which I have contributed and share the final product. This fabricator/manufacturer must have the facility to assemble a crankshaft and the engineering ability to construct a frame in which to hold the motor. Are you listening GM ?
BiDaDiKuNuKu	Posted - 10/07/2009 : 05:57:18 AM thnx TEEP...4 ur input on this current/wire lenght/thickness thing...:)...will keep this in mind 5 future upgrade...:) Peace! V2DAY http://www.youtube.com/user/BiDaDiKuNuKu "1 often meets his destiny on tha road he takes 2 avoid it"
teep	Posted - 10/07/2009 : 04:57:37 AM Quick rule of thumb. The thicker the wire the more currant. The more wire the more voltage. The above is correct to a point. If you have a very long winding you will get good volts but not so good courant, so one would think from the above rule of thumb one would have to just rewind the coil with the same length of wire but with a thicker gage, well not that simple. The more wire one uses in the coil the less currant but more voltage. (It�s the balancing between length and gage to get the required results.)So in short to get more currant you need low coil turns but thicker gage wire. Just have a look at a car alternator gage of wire, you will find it�s thick gage wire and low in the number of turns in comparison to are work. The next thing is in order to calculate a gage to length ratio for any alternator one would have to know all the dimensions of your proposed alternator, like the materials its going to be constructed from. The type and strength of the magnetic field that one would be using, and a bunch more information would be needed to even start. In other words it�s a mind field when it comes to Alternators/generators. So that brings me back to the Quick rule of thumb. And the above is correct to a point. Alternators/generators may seem very simple when completed but not so when preparing to build one from scratch. Nice work Topher. I may seem to be absent, but I am watching all your progress. I�ve gone back to playing with magnetic motors just for now but nothing to report. Yours theDaftman TEEP forums administrator. See my videos on YouTube. http://uk.youtube.com/theDaftman
tropes	Posted - 09/07/2009 : 6:31:44 PM I don't think the wire size makes any difference as far as generated current. My present measurements are 35V and .06 amps = 2.1 watts. If I use the same weight of thicker wire I will get .6 amps but only 3.5 volts. Still 2.1 watts. Maybe an electrican can help. Tropes
tropes	Posted - 09/07/2009 : 08:16:53 AM quote: Originally posted by BiDaDiKuNuKu 1 question tho...looking at ur pic i see that the right coil is fatter than the left 1...so does that 1 have more windings?? Yes, the fat one has 2637ft. of 30 gauge wire; 293 ohm. and the other has 333 ft.; 37ohm. I have observed an increase in RPM when I add the coils but when I use the generated current to run the fan the RPM drops. Tropes

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